[TEASER]

I love fashion and love clothing and want to continue to express what I consider to be the best version of myself through something I really enjoy that brings me happiness and makes me feel confident and like myself.

[INTRO]

Welcome back to Relentless, a podcast about the pursuit of farfetched ideas, unusual aspirations, or that perfect pair of sneakers. I’m the host, Maddy Russell-Shapiro.

In this second season, we took a look behind the scenes of the apparel industry to understand the kinds of ethical choices that are possible when making and marketing clothes. In today’s episode, we consider a role that is invisible to shoppers but has a lot of influence on what people decide to buy: the role of the stylist.

A stylist is present at nearly every photo shoot, whether for a catalogue, a brand website, an advertisement, a fashion magazine spread, or a celebrity profile. If you like looking at photos of clothes in order to inform your own style and shopping decisions, then you are under the influence of stylists. But not all stylists approach their work with the same attitude and today’s guest, Rachael Wang, has a very particular agenda that she brings to her work. Our conversation took place in summer 2019 in Rachael’s Brooklyn home and has been edited for clarity and length.

Rachael: My name is Rachael Wang, I am a fashion stylist and creative consultant. I’m going to be 35 this summer. I work with brands to help them develop their identity through imagery. Also kind of whisper in their ear on the things that are happening in the zeitgeist, in youth culture, in underground spaces, and also help them to find creative ways to express their brand identity through building up crews and teams to help execute those images.

2:01 Maddy: We’re sitting here today because of our shared interest in questions related to ethics in fashion. How do you explain your interest in these environmental and social and human rights considerations in the fashion world?

R: Let’s see. I’m going to back up. I had a turning point in my career. In 2016, about three years ago, I went to protest the Dakota Access Pipeline at Standing Rock. And I was so moved by the indigenous-led resistance there that I came back to New York like a changed person. And at the time, I was working as the fashion director of Allure Magazine at Condé Nast. I had worked in and out of Condé Nast at different magazines for about a decade at that point. A feeling just came over me when I walked through my office doors, the big Allure doors. I felt like I can’t do this anymore. There was something about it that felt false, fake, not authentic to me, all of a sudden. Nothing had changed physically but emotionally I just wasn’t the same person I was a week before that.

3:15 M: Could you describe in a little more detail what the change was that you experienced from going to Standing Rock?

It’s hard to say.  The connection that indigenous people have with the earth and the planet is so deeply, and I’m not an authority on this, but it’s so deeply a part of the way they move through life and integrate it into their everyday actions and spirituality. Everything we did from sitting in a space and having gratitude to sit and occupy a space on the land, to wanting to protect the earth and the earth’s resources that then protect us, to protecting sacred burial sites for people’s ancestors that were potentially going to be disrupted by the pipeline being put into that area. Seeing how connected we are with the earth reminded me of the things that I knew in my soul but privilege allows me to live in a bubble without having to be in a lot of uncomfortable situations. And so being in a situation where everything was uncomfortable allowed me to realize that I want to do everything that I can to liberate the people in this country so that I can be liberated too. Whatever role I can play in trying to, from a media standpoint, incorporate those values of connectedness and ancestry and passed down wisdom so we can build on the wisdom that already existed.

That triggered in my mind that I needed to figure out whether I was going to leave the industry and pursue a career path where I could connect my values more with my work, or I could stay in the industry doing what I can to progress the industry and make it a more inclusive place. I started mulling over how do I do this, what does this look like, how do you participate in the fashion industry, can I continue, etc, etc. I became more mindful about every aspect of what I did. When I was putting together a photo shoot, I made sure that I was hiring women and people of color to be the crew, making sure that the casting was representative of what our amazingly diverse United States population looks like, was reflective of that from skin color, ethnicity, religion, to body shape and size. But I did get to the point where I felt I was limited in what I could do. I decided ultimately I was going to be most effective if went out on my own. I chose to leave Allure, an amazing opportunity that I had had and I was so grateful for that and I learned so much there, and I wanted to give that opportunity to someone else who was really, really excited to be in that position. I know that was a long intro, but that sets the stage for how I went from being typical fashion person to someone who is interested in ethics behind fashion.

6:25 Why don’t you talk about what you see as the role of a stylist who is working to her values?

I spend a lot of time researching talent, whether it’s hair stylists and makeup artists, models and people who would be willing to pose in front of the camera, photographers, emerging photographers. There is a good amount of power there if I’m willing to put in the effort. But you can also sit back and other people will make those decisions for you as a stylist. I get out of it as much as I put in. I choose to work with magazines that give me creative freedom, that give me the power to build my team, that gives me the power to pitch an idea for a fashion story or trend that I can incorporate the brands that I want.

7:14 Will you enumerate for me what the values are that you are putting at the forefront of your work?

I love design and I am enamored of the people who can create garments that go on our bodies that allow us to transform our identity. I just think it’s magic and to be able to harness the power over what people think of us based on what we’re wearing is something I recognized very early on and I continue to be really inspired by that power. The things that I don’t like about the fashion industry or didn’t like from the moment I stepped foot, was the elitism, was the exclusivity, was the “it’s a club and you can’t be in it,” was the prohibitively expensive price tag of beautiful clothing, was the very singular Eurocentric idealized version of what the fashion industry considered to be beautiful. And so those are the things I am working to change -- on a very, very small scale – but I hope that if one person can see an image that I worked on and feel that they belong in that picture or in the world, for them to feel seen, for them to see a version of them self in a media space, to me that’s all I want. I just want for people to be seen and to feel included and so I’m working towards making sure the images I work on are representative of the amazing diversity we have in this country, whether it’s gender, ethnicity, religion, body shape. One of the challenges I have as a stylist working in a fashion industry where the idealized beauty image has been a thin, tall, white woman is finding clothes, getting my hands on clothes that will fit bodies that are bigger than a size 0 or 2 or 4. And it’s very important for me to include bodies of all sizes in the work I do, especially bigger bodies, because they’re not represented as much and they are just as beautiful and just as worthy of being in in these images. But it’s very challenging to have access to clothing in a variety of sizes.

And the reason why I’m working so hard and why it’s challenging to incorporate diversity, especially of body size in fashion imagery, is because brands produce one sample set, generally, of their collection in advance of a season. For example, for the fall season, X brand will produce one of each item that will eventually be in stores in one size and that size will be a 0 or a 2 or a 4, if you are very lucky, a 4. Which is not that lucky [laughs]. They produce one. So there is literally one garment that has to fit a body that is that size or smaller. Traditionally, the reason why samples exist is because magazines, which are now becoming obsolete because people read things on the internet, but the reason why a sample was produced was magazines need three months to produce content for print issues. So you would do photo shoot for the September issue three months before September happens and so you need a sample of the clothing before it exists to shoot it so when the magazine comes out, and you see the image, the clothing available in stores at that time has already been photographed. It is very expensive for designers to have more than one size or one garment of each style made for each season. It makes it very challenging for me as a stylist. If I could shoot bodies larger than a size 4 in every single shoot I would because we need to make up for lost time. But it is very challenging for me to find brands that are willing to make samples in sizes larger than a size 4. The other alternative is, as stylist I can ask to borrow clothing from the store. Brands often don’t want you to pull from store because then the image will be promoting an item they can no longer sell.

12:15 In a way, it just speaks to layers of fashion industry and the room for improvement and change that exist at so many different levels and it’s such a complex industry. If you could describe how your wardrobe and shopping choices have evolved.

I started to feel overwhelmed and paralyzed by the scale of things that an individual should be doing, can be doing, is responsible for doing, knowing, saying, being, consuming. And decided to stop the track and figure out what I could do that was invisible, that was for me, that didn’t effect anyone else, I didn’t need to ask permission, I could do it by myself without any help, every single day that would allow me to make a small contribution to preserving the environment. And that decision was to become plant-based, vegan, and went cold-turkey from a food-consumption standpoint, originally. I was actually amazed at how easy it was. I feel very lucky that I live in New York and there is amazing restaurant options. I really just tried to forget everything I knew about food and re-define what eating was for me, starting Day One of being plant-based and find joy in eating every single meal. Every time I consume something, find joy and have gratitude for all the time, energy, money, resources, backbreaking labor that went into harvesting, growing, transporting whatever plant foods I was eating and really connecting with the food.

Probably three years of eating plant-based and then I was like, fuck, I’m a fraud. I am eating plants but I’m wearing leather. To me, there’s no difference between raising and grazing and killing a cow for meat or for dairy or for leather. So I was like ok, I’m gonna transition my wardrobe to not include animal products either and that was really hard. It was very challenging to redefine who I was and continue to express the version of myself I wanted to express without using leather but not that many brands offer leather alternative products.

I regret doing what I did because now that I know more, I would have done it a different way. What I did was, I gathered all leather things in my closet and got rid of them. I sold them, I gave them to friends, or donated them. I didn’t throw them away so I didn’t contribute to landfill. But now, looking back, I don’t think that was best way to manage that. I already bought those things, already made new for me, I purchased them, the right thing to do would have been to continue wearing those things until they wore out, rather than getting rid of them. So I regret that but I needed to go through that to learn that lesson. 

I do care about animals and their suffering and I also care about the environment so trying to find the overlap on that and not compromise my values on either side because making decisions doesn’t always satisfy both needs. Because of my strong support for reducing consumption on the whole and environmentalism and the personal way that I move through this life and I love fashion and I love clothing and I want to continue to express what I consider to be the best version of myself through something I really enjoy, that brings me happiness and makes me feel confident and like myself, so if I can’t find something that I’m looking for new that is good for the environment, then I feel perfectly fine buying a second-hand leather product because it is taking that product was already made and not going to landfill, giving its life more purpose, product’s life, obviously not the animal’s life, because the animal didn’t live.

17:07 The leather comes from animals. There’s other animal byproduct, if that’s the right word, for example, wool.

I personally don’t buy wool new. It’s challenging though to find fabrics that have the same technical abilities that wool does. Mother Nature created the most perfect things that animals need to stay warm and cool, to perspire and to dry, all the things that keep sheep happy and surviving and thriving is comfortable and warm and breathes and biodegrades. And the great thing about animal products, originally started making products is because they’re very functional. The ethics of industrialized farming raising these things is where it goes off the rails.

Early on, I was looking for synthetic alternatives. But my problem with synthetic alternatives is they are made from chemicals and plastic which doesn’t biodegrade, so that is also extremely problematic for someone who cares about the environment [laughs] and I’m stuck. Years later, I’m still trying to figure out what to do about that and where to go.

Some brands are recycling plastic bottles into a synthetic that is like a fleece. Alternative to wool sweater is a zip-up fleece. But can’t biodegrade. So yes, solving problem of trash in oceans, but then when you wash it, has plastic particles that go into water and the water goes back into water system. This is where fashion and science meets. We’re moving into exciting time where the lovemaking between fashion and science is really important and needed. Creating something out of our waste products that can biodegrade is the way to change the industry.

19:11 Give us a little spiel about Fair Trade as it relates to clothing.

There’s no way to have conversation about ethical fashion without thinking about people who make it. Fast fashion has revolutionized fashion and trends because made trendy high design accessible to everyone. People who can’t afford to buy thousands of dollars of designer clothing can get similar trend driven item at affordable price. That’s amazing. Everyone deserve to represent and dress and adorn themselves in a way that expressed identify and way they want to be presented and at an affordable price point. That can’t be at the expense of other people’s lives. People don’t always make connection between t-shirt $5 means people who participated in producing t-shirt are making very little money and not enough money to have stewardship over their lives.

Fair Trade is an amazing organization because they make sure brands are paying their laborers fairly for their time and energy. But the most amazing thing about what Fair Trade does is they also encourage a program for brands that are Fair Trade brands to contribute additional funds to an account that those laborers can use to build their community. The people that work in a particular factory can choose to use that fund on something they choose, whether lunches for everyone or one factory sent one worker’s son to college.

If you are buying a Fair Trade item, you will be paying for someone to make enough money to pay rent, get to work, maybe save to pay for education for children, so they can create community to thrive. I think it’s one of the really hard things as a consumer is to know and trust brands when they say they are doing something. But what does it really look like in the factory? Do they have breaks, do they have fresh water? What is the chemical runoff at the factories? Brands tell us but are they lying? It’s hard to know. The point of an organization like Fair Trade is that they are monitoring for safe conditions.

22:02 Do you have any starter tips for folks who are trying to understand better either what they already have, where it came from, or making shopping decisions.

From consumer standpoint, based on my experience as a consumer, what I do is go to a website’s About page. I have to spend a little time but I care and I’m willing to spend my time on things I care about. I poke around and see the language they are using. I read what the company values are. A lot of times, brands that are promoting themselves as sustainable don’t talk about labor and paying their laborers fairly. Also, what does paying labor fairly mean? I don’t know. People talk about a living wage. Is that enough to live? We want people to thrive. But we do need to be incremental about change, it can’t all flip in one day. Having an open mind as a consumer and being open to brands working on it, and being transparent about setting forth the goals they have and what that looks like and how they are going to accomplish those goals are the main things I look out for. I look for brands that talk about materials that they’re using. Brands that really care about the environment will educate you on what types of fabrics they’re using, textiles, where they come from, what they’re made from. Brands calling out reduction in carbon emissions whether through initiatives to plant trees or various ways to do this. The use of water and trying to recycle the water they use. How they package the products they are sending to you if you buy off the internet. Listen to language and read. And if they don’t say anything on the website and you happen to be in the vicinity of a store or are already in a store, you can certainly ask. Does this brand have any sustainability practices? What are you doing to offset your carbon emissions? The store managers send a daily brief to headquarters. And if people are asking for products that are made with regard for the planet and its people then that is going to be downloaded. If enough people ask, they want your money, they are going to want to create products you want to buy.

There’s not really one centralized hub of information that makes it easy for people who want to consciously consume to find products. You have to spend a lot of time researching, scrolling around on internet and Instagram. Time you can’t spend with kids, exercising, healing your stress and anxiety. It’s a lot of pressure on the consumer to find an alternative. The more we can talk about it, the more we can support brands that are producing ethical clothing, more options will be available, and hopefully more hubs of information to help us connect with these brands.

25:25 Coming back to you. Freelance stylist, all these things you are concerned about personally, professionally. You are working in this industry that, as much as you want to see change, you also love. What’s a favorite moment in the stream of your work? What does it feel like when you’ve got that team together and you’re about to get started on a day of work?

I really get lost in the fantasy of creating my Dream Team with the dream visuals. Whether we’re shooting in a studio on a colored backdrop and we hired a prop stylist who’s going to bring cool objects or furniture or build a set. To me, that’s, I mean, the dream. So exciting and I get to live in that fantasy world. It’s a really fun game to do all the back work that’s invisible but the end product is beautiful and you don’t know I snuck in some sustainable brands, and my team was all women of color, and all these other amazing things. Really exciting to me. And of course, when I get on set and I have a crew that doesn’t look like what the crews looked like when I was an assistant, it feels so safe. It feels so collaborative and nonjudgmental. The crews that are all people of color or all women or a mix thereof feel a bit safer for me. I guess that’s because I’m a woman who is white passing but also Chinese and I feel more comfortable in that environment. I feel more comfortable to use my voice, to be creative, to put forth ideas, and I feel like in those environments everyone else does too. They feel comfortable to articulate their point of view, to create without being told ideas are stupid. Then it becomes very fun because instead of being stressful and limiting and being made to feel small, we all feel empowered and collaborative and creative, and can create something we all feel good about and want to birth and put into the world. That’s the best feeling.

Thank you so much to Rachael for participating in this interview. If you want to see Rachael’s work, her name is spelled R-a-c-h-a-e-l W-a-n-g  She’s on Instagram @rachaelwangstudio And her website is Rachael Wang dot com There are also links on our website to Rachael’s work and to information about Fair Trade clothing; that’s The Relentless dot Org.

Today’s episode is the final installment in our ethical fashion season. Thank you for joining us in this investigation. Please let us know your thoughts about the series, the topic, and the format on our website or through Instagram, @therelentlesspodcast

Relentless is recorded by Bryght Young Things and, as always, music is from Building Beats, a nonprofit that teaches young people in New York City’s schools how to DJ and make music. Today’s music was produced by DJ Synchro and EJ Cali. If you like the music, please consider supporting Building Beats! 

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We’re already at work on Season Three so be well, be safe, and come back for the next episode.